Who would win in court?

[Aerodeck]

Hello everyone, Please could you read the below letters in a parking ticket
dispute i'm having, i would welcome advice etc.... photos at
www.aerodeck.karoo.net/parking.rar

Two tickets were issued, for me and a work mate.

I would be intrested to know how this would go in court, is the ticket to me
or my work, who own the van?
Please note the fact that the parking tickets were filled out incorectly and
that it took them 4 months to respond. Or are we 'bang-to-rights' as they
would say...

cheers....



THIS IS THE LETTER I SENT ONCE I RECIVED THE TICKETS.....






24 January 2006



Dear Sir



We are writing to appeal the parking charge notices received on 24th Jan
2006



Ref Serial No. XL / 0103707 a

Ref Serial No. XL / 0103708 0



We have been using this site for several months, to stop and have our
tachograph rest brakes, required by law.



Several weeks ago, we were spoken to by parking attendant Mr Person1 who
recommended we park in a certain area due to the size of our vehicles. We
found Mr Person1 to be very polite and helpful.



However today, whiles in a restaurant, we noticed a parking attendant, Mr
Person2, near our vehicles. We approached him and asked him why, he informed
us that we was 'outside the lines'.



We find this very annoying as you can see by the enclosed photos, taken at
the time, it is quite difficult to park these vehicles inside of the lines.
We also feel that due to the car park been almost empty we were not causing
any danger to members of the public.



Please can I also draw your attention to some faults on the actual tickets.
On XL / 0103708 0 the time is stated as 14.50 when infact the time was
12.40, the attached copy of the tachograph proves the time. You can also see
that the 'part two' section of this ticket has not been completed by Mr
Person2



Also on both tickets 'Driver Present' is marked as 'No' when the photos show
the parking attendant issuing the tickets with us present.



We trust you can resolve this matter.









THIS IS THE LETTER I RECIVED 4 MONTHS LATER SAYING I HAVE TO PAY THE
TICKETS....



5th April 2006





We have recently carried out an audit on our system, this has revealed
Parking Charges Notices outstanding. Upon Processing this information we
have noted an appeal recevied from yourselfs but that unfortunately has not
been processed by ourselfs, therefore you have received no responce to your
corrsepondence. We therefore respond accordingly below.



We acknowladge receipt of your challenge to the above parking notice.
Despite carefull consideration of the circumstances, we have not found
sufficient grounds to cancel the charge.



Whilst we understand your concern at receving a notice, it is entirely the
motorists responsiblilty to satisfy themselfs before leaving the vehicle,
that they are not contravening any regulations.



The signs clearly state a vehicle must park correctly within the markings of
a designated bay and failure to do so will result in the issue of a parking
charge notice. Signs are present thoughout the car park and it is the
motoists responsiblity to make themselves aware of the rules and regulations
in place.



While you may not have intentionally breached the regulations the fact
remains that you were in contravention of them. We regret to disappont you,
but unfortunatly, the circumstances you described give us no grounds to
waive Notices as previously stated.



You can still take advantage of the discounted charge of £40.00 by arranging
payment to arrive at out office by 13th April 2006. If we do not recive
payment by this date the charge will revert to £100.00 payable. Failure to
comply will result in the issue of court proceedings whereby further costs
will be incurred.





THIS IS THE REPLY I MIGHT SEND IN THE NEXT DAY OR SO....



After taken legal advice, we are writing to inform you that we will not be
paying these fines, and if need-be; we will go to court.



We are not the registered keepers of these vehicles. We have been instructed
to tell you to contact the registered keepers of both vehicles directly.
Any correspondence regarding this matter must be done via them and any
correspondence to ourselves will be ignored by us and forwarded, unopened to
the vehicles owners.



Excel Parking incompetents from start to finish will result in this been
dismissed in court. From the 4 months to respond to a recorded delivery
letter to the grossly incorrectly filled out parking tickets.





We strongly recommend you review this case.

[Alex Heney]

On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:16:55 +0100, "Aerodeck"

Post by Aerodeck
Hello everyone, Please could you read the below letters in a parking ticket
dispute i'm having, i would welcome advice etc.... photos at
www.aerodeck.karoo.net/parking.rar
Two tickets were issued, for me and a work mate.
I would be intrested to know how this would go in court, is the ticket to me
or my work, who own the van?

To you.

It would only go to the registered keepers if the actual users at the
time could not be identified.

Post by Aerodeck
Please note the fact that the parking tickets were filled out incorectly and
that it took them 4 months to respond. Or are we 'bang-to-rights' as they
would say...

You are bang to rights, I'm afraid.

It may be difficult to park a large vehicle within the bays, but then
the car park is not intended for large vehicles.

And it isn't impossible, because there is space to the left of your
vehicle, and there is a larger gap at the front than the amount it
overhangs the line at the rear.

And whether you were actually inconveniencing anybody else is not
relevant, except in mitigation. This may not be "fair", but it is the
rules.

The four months is bad organisation on their part, but well within the
time allowed, and they have extended the time you can pay the
discounted rate to take account of that.

The wrong time would only really be relevant if there were different
rules at different times, given that the photos show that the vehicle
*was* parked there, and was outside the boxes.

It certainly seems very petty of the "official", but I'm afraid you
would be unlikely to win, IMO.

[Aerodeck]

Thank you everyone for your feedback & coments....

Yes, they are the same people as in the link, I infomed my boss at the time
about the tickets as we was in works time (although a lunch hour) so I will
hope that he might pay for them, athough in 2 weeks time they are closing
the company (been made redundent) but now Excel have my details, I guess
they will try and do the notice via me.

I was kinda hoping that they were trying to call my bluff on this... so if i
send them a letter saying 'see you in court'... its a big gamble, i just
hoped if they filled out the tickets incorectly i would be ok... kinda like
if a traffic warden issues you a ticket without his hat on it is invalid.

Post by Sharky
I would completely ignore them from now on, don't write or pay.
These type of private parking contractors rely on people paying who are
scared, they seldom bother to take non-payers to court - its not worth
their while.
I've had about 20 parking tickets from similar scammers over the years,
of which then had letters threatening courts from about 4 of them, none
of which ever went to court.
http://www.stockportexpress.co.uk/news/s/22/22064_parking_firm_in_probe_over_excessive_tickets.html

[Sharky]

Post by Aerodeck
Thank you everyone for your feedback & coments....
Yes, they are the same people as in the link, I infomed my boss at the time
about the tickets as we was in works time (although a lunch hour) so I will
hope that he might pay for them, athough in 2 weeks time they are closing
the company (been made redundent) but now Excel have my details, I guess
they will try and do the notice via me.
I was kinda hoping that they were trying to call my bluff on this... so if i
send them a letter saying 'see you in court'... its a big gamble, i just
hoped if they filled out the tickets incorectly i would be ok... kinda like
if a traffic warden issues you a ticket without his hat on it is invalid.

Don't even send them a 'see you in court letter', won't put them off if
thats the way they like to do things and in fact might make some
employee choose you to make an example of - imagine if they have 100
unpaid tickets to pursue - 99 ignore their first letter, so they give up
chasing, and then you're jumping up above the parapet shouting "sue me!
and giving them a nice target complete with verified contact address.
Just send any further letters back to them "not known at this address"
and in the very unlikely they ever get round to sending a summons -
defend it.

Post by Aerodeck

Post by Sharky
I would completely ignore them from now on, don't write or pay.
These type of private parking contractors rely on people paying who are
scared, they seldom bother to take non-payers to court - its not worth
their while.
I've had about 20 parking tickets from similar scammers over the years,
of which then had letters threatening courts from about 4 of them, none
of which ever went to court.
http://www.stockportexpress.co.uk/news/s/22/22064_parking_firm_in_probe_over_excessive_tickets.html

[Aerodeck]

ok, i see your point, but will we be putting ourselfs at risk of any CCJ
etc?

Also my first point still remains, don't they have to fill in the ticket
100% correctly for it to be valid? Otherwize it could lead to all kinds of
fraud/falce tickets etc...

Post by Sharky

Post by Aerodeck
Thank you everyone for your feedback & coments....
Yes, they are the same people as in the link, I infomed my boss at the
time about the tickets as we was in works time (although a lunch hour) so
I will hope that he might pay for them, athough in 2 weeks time they are
closing the company (been made redundent) but now Excel have my details,
I guess they will try and do the notice via me.
I was kinda hoping that they were trying to call my bluff on this... so
if i send them a letter saying 'see you in court'... its a big gamble, i
just hoped if they filled out the tickets incorectly i would be ok...
kinda like if a traffic warden issues you a ticket without his hat on it
is invalid.

Don't even send them a 'see you in court letter', won't put them off if
thats the way they like to do things and in fact might make some employee
choose you to make an example of - imagine if they have 100 unpaid tickets
to pursue - 99 ignore their first letter, so they give up chasing, and
then you're jumping up above the parapet shouting "sue me! and giving them
a nice target complete with verified contact address.
Just send any further letters back to them "not known at this address" and
in the very unlikely they ever get round to sending a summons - defend it.

Post by Aerodeck

Post by Sharky
I would completely ignore them from now on, don't write or pay.
These type of private parking contractors rely on people paying who are
scared, they seldom bother to take non-payers to court - its not worth
their while.
I've had about 20 parking tickets from similar scammers over the years,
of which then had letters threatening courts from about 4 of them, none
of which ever went to court.
http://www.stockportexpress.co.uk/news/s/22/22064_parking_firm_in_probe_over_excessive_tickets.html

[Sharky]

Post by Aerodeck
ok, i see your point, but will we be putting ourselfs at risk of any CCJ
etc?
Also my first point still remains, don't they have to fill in the ticket
100% correctly for it to be valid? Otherwize it could lead to all kinds of
fraud/falce tickets etc...

I don't think it matters in offstreet parking like this, they make their
own rules rather than have them set by legistlation.

Basically, the way they work is to put up signage saying that you agree
to pay them some dosh if you don't comply with their parking conditions.
If you fail to do what they say, they raise an invoice and tell you to
pay it.
To get a court to agree to make you pay it, they have to convince the
court that a) you agreed to their parking conditions b) you broke them

As i said before they rely on the fact that most people like you pay up
without argueing, they really don't want to go to court because
1) It'll cost them more than they gain - they may get the charge paid
and a bit of costs - say £100 tops - but in that time the guy who needs
to attend court to give evidence could have stuck 100 tickets on cars
and collected £4000.
2) Its very possible that the judge will agree with you that their terms
wern't clear/ signed correctly / enforced correctly and they lose the
case. Then you publicise the win and nobody pays them in future.


Where was this carpark btw?

Post by Aerodeck

Post by Sharky

Post by Aerodeck
Thank you everyone for your feedback & coments....
Yes, they are the same people as in the link, I infomed my boss at the
time about the tickets as we was in works time (although a lunch hour) so
I will hope that he might pay for them, athough in 2 weeks time they are
closing the company (been made redundent) but now Excel have my details,
I guess they will try and do the notice via me.
I was kinda hoping that they were trying to call my bluff on this... so
if i send them a letter saying 'see you in court'... its a big gamble, i
just hoped if they filled out the tickets incorectly i would be ok...
kinda like if a traffic warden issues you a ticket without his hat on it
is invalid.

Don't even send them a 'see you in court letter', won't put them off if
thats the way they like to do things and in fact might make some employee
choose you to make an example of - imagine if they have 100 unpaid tickets
to pursue - 99 ignore their first letter, so they give up chasing, and
then you're jumping up above the parapet shouting "sue me! and giving them
a nice target complete with verified contact address.
Just send any further letters back to them "not known at this address" and
in the very unlikely they ever get round to sending a summons - defend it.

Post by Aerodeck

Post by Sharky
I would completely ignore them from now on, don't write or pay.
These type of private parking contractors rely on people paying who are
scared, they seldom bother to take non-payers to court - its not worth
their while.
I've had about 20 parking tickets from similar scammers over the years,
of which then had letters threatening courts from about 4 of them, none
of which ever went to court.
http://www.stockportexpress.co.uk/news/s/22/22064_parking_firm_in_probe_over_excessive_tickets.html

[Aerodeck]

thanks for that..

It was Hull, Mount Pleasant Retail Park.

I do agree with you, its would cost them a lot to follow it up and chase for
the money.

Post by Sharky

Post by Aerodeck
ok, i see your point, but will we be putting ourselfs at risk of any CCJ
etc?
Also my first point still remains, don't they have to fill in the ticket
100% correctly for it to be valid? Otherwize it could lead to all kinds
of fraud/falce tickets etc...

I don't think it matters in offstreet parking like this, they make their
own rules rather than have them set by legistlation.
Basically, the way they work is to put up signage saying that you agree to
pay them some dosh if you don't comply with their parking conditions.
If you fail to do what they say, they raise an invoice and tell you to pay
it.
To get a court to agree to make you pay it, they have to convince the
court that a) you agreed to their parking conditions b) you broke them
As i said before they rely on the fact that most people like you pay up
without argueing, they really don't want to go to court because
1) It'll cost them more than they gain - they may get the charge paid and
a bit of costs - say £100 tops - but in that time the guy who needs to
attend court to give evidence could have stuck 100 tickets on cars and
collected £4000.
2) Its very possible that the judge will agree with you that their terms
wern't clear/ signed correctly / enforced correctly and they lose the
case. Then you publicise the win and nobody pays them in future.
Where was this carpark btw?

Post by Aerodeck

Post by Sharky

Post by Aerodeck
Thank you everyone for your feedback & coments....
Yes, they are the same people as in the link, I infomed my boss at the
time about the tickets as we was in works time (although a lunch hour)
so I will hope that he might pay for them, athough in 2 weeks time they
are closing the company (been made redundent) but now Excel have my
details, I guess they will try and do the notice via me.
I was kinda hoping that they were trying to call my bluff on this... so
if i send them a letter saying 'see you in court'... its a big gamble, i
just hoped if they filled out the tickets incorectly i would be ok...
kinda like if a traffic warden issues you a ticket without his hat on it
is invalid.

Don't even send them a 'see you in court letter', won't put them off if
thats the way they like to do things and in fact might make some employee
choose you to make an example of - imagine if they have 100 unpaid
tickets to pursue - 99 ignore their first letter, so they give up
chasing, and then you're jumping up above the parapet shouting "sue me!
and giving them a nice target complete with verified contact address.
Just send any further letters back to them "not known at this address"
and in the very unlikely they ever get round to sending a summons -
defend it.

Post by Aerodeck

Post by Sharky
I would completely ignore them from now on, don't write or pay.
These type of private parking contractors rely on people paying who are
scared, they seldom bother to take non-payers to court - its not worth
their while.
I've had about 20 parking tickets from similar scammers over the years,
of which then had letters threatening courts from about 4 of them, none
of which ever went to court.
http://www.stockportexpress.co.uk/news/s/22/22064_parking_firm_in_probe_over_excessive_tickets.html

[Mike Ross]

Post by Sharky
Basically, the way they work is to put up signage saying that you agree
to pay them some dosh if you don't comply with their parking conditions.
If you fail to do what they say, they raise an invoice and tell you to
pay it.
To get a court to agree to make you pay it, they have to convince the
court that a) you agreed to their parking conditions b) you broke them

c) that the contract is fair - to impose a thumping penalty for a
trivial breach that caused no loss or damage to anyone stands a good
chance of being thrown out, I'd have thought.

Mike
--
http://www.corestore.org
'As I walk along these shores
I am the history within'

[NeedforSwede2]

Post by Aerodeck
Hello everyone, Please could you read the below letters in a parking ticket
dispute i'm having, i would welcome advice etc.... photos at
www.aerodeck.karoo.net/parking.rar

OK, I haven't looked at your download (strange files and that)
But do the tickets as issued have both a date of issue and a seperate
date of offence/contravention?

If they don't, the tickets are not only unenforcable, but also illegal.
This has been proven in court, and all local authorities were contacted
to ensure that their parking attendants/contractors knew of this. Many
made no changes to their tickets.

[Carl]

Post by NeedforSwede2

Post by Aerodeck
Hello everyone, Please could you read the below letters in a parking ticket
dispute i'm having, i would welcome advice etc.... photos at
www.aerodeck.karoo.net/parking.rar

OK, I haven't looked at your download (strange files and that)

There Rar files: .
RAR is the native format of WinRAR archiver. Like other archives, RAR files
are data containers, they store one or several files in the compressed form.
After you downloaded RAR file from Internet, you need to unpack its contents
in order to use it

[Aerodeck]

Yer, just like .zip files, just quicker and easyer for me to upload the
photos, saves posting several links for several photos

Post by Carl
There Rar files: .
RAR is the native format of WinRAR archiver. Like other archives, RAR
files are data containers, they store one or several files in the
compressed form. After you downloaded RAR file from Internet, you need to
unpack its contents in order to use it

[Alex Heney]

On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 19:54:03 +0100, "Aerodeck"

Post by Aerodeck
Yer, just like .zip files, just quicker and easyer for me to upload the
photos, saves posting several links for several photos

Except that just about everybody will be able to decode zipped files -
the default zip processing application that come with Windows or most
varieties of linux will do that.

But .rar files can only be processed if you have separately installed
a .rar decoder program.

[NeedforSwede2]

In article <***@bt.com>, ***@myemail.com
says...

Post by Carl

Post by NeedforSwede2

Post by Aerodeck
Hello everyone, Please could you read the below letters in a parking ticket
dispute i'm having, i would welcome advice etc.... photos at
www.aerodeck.karoo.net/parking.rar

OK, I haven't looked at your download (strange files and that)

There Rar files: .
RAR is the native format of WinRAR archiver. Like other archives, RAR files
are data containers, they store one or several files in the compressed form.
After you downloaded RAR file from Internet, you need to unpack its contents
in order to use it

I understand what it is.
I also undertand that the contents could be equally malicious as they
could be the contents you would expect.

[Sharky]

Post by Aerodeck
Hello everyone, Please could you read the below letters in a parking ticket
dispute i'm having, i would welcome advice etc.... photos at
www.aerodeck.karoo.net/parking.rar
Two tickets were issued, for me and a work mate.
I would be intrested to know how this would go in court, is the ticket to me
or my work, who own the van?
Please note the fact that the parking tickets were filled out incorectly and
that it took them 4 months to respond. Or are we 'bang-to-rights' as they
would say...
cheers....

I would completely ignore them from now on, don't write or pay.
These type of private parking contractors rely on people paying who are
scared, they seldom bother to take non-payers to court - its not worth
their while.
I've had about 20 parking tickets from similar scammers over the years,
of which then had letters threatening courts from about 4 of them, none
of which ever went to court.

Are these the same people?:
http://www.stockportexpress.co.uk/news/s/22/22064_parking_firm_in_probe_over_excessive_tickets.html